Over the DM's Shoulder

Wednesday, March 1, 2023

Why I Use a Combination of 3.5 and 5E Rules

It's commonly considered pretty standard to play the current edition of a game. Most current D&D players play 5E and are abuzz about the upcoming new edition. I think that has a lot to do with the current generation of gamers being relatively new to tabletop games, which is in no way a criticism--you have to start somewhere. But as a more long-time gamer, my perspective is different. I was introduced to the tabletop world with D&D 3.5, a revision of the game's third edition. And I became very familiar with the rules of 3.5--so familiar, in fact, that I would entertain friends by referring to exact page numbers and page positions of specific information they were asking for. I had genuinely memorized the players handbook. Learning 5E was a long process; I had many things to unlearn and relearn. But ultimately, they are relatively similar systems, and each has its strengths. That's part of why I use a combination of 3.5 and 5E rules when I run D&D. 

Let's start with some information on 3.5 for those who are unfamiliar. Generally, in its time, it was a beloved system, but many complained that it was overly clunky. This idea is what led to the creation of Pathfinder, a game that set out to "fix" 3.5's flaws. (I haven't played Pathfinder personally, but I own the manual, and I agree that it looks a bit more elegant--you can also see where 5E was inspired by some decisions.) Nevertheless, 3.5 has some strengths that it's hard to ignore. My favorite thing about 3.5 was the way skills were structured. Where in 5E, you choose a few skills (depending on your class) to be boosted by your proficiency bonus, in 3.5, you would be given a bank of skill points at every level, which you would then invest in the skills you saw fit. There was a limit on how many skill points you could put in a skill, linked to your class levels, to prevent entirely broken numbers, but it still got out of control quickly. So what was great about this structure if it already sounds broken? 

It helped players in a number of ways. Firstly, it gave more control over what a character is good at to the player. Instead of a mere proficiency bonus, I could decide that my character had really focused on a few skills. This is incredibly useful for rogues, who need sizable bonus to skills like stealth and deception to be reliably helpful. (Of course, those skills were different things in 3.5--more on that later.) Players could also more easily choose to become fairly talented in multiple things, becoming jacks-of-all-trades in a way that 5E doesn't really allow for. (3.5 also had a system for making skills easier to access for certain classes where it cost double points to invest skill points in a skill that wasn't in the domain of your class. It was something I enjoyed for the added strategy of choosing a class and skills, but I know many people disliked it. I have abandoned it in my homebrew.) This skill system allowed for greater control and creativity with skills. 

Another advantage is the ability to redirect a character in the middle of a campaign. In 5E, when you want to change your character's path, you can change classes, but a lot of your character is set in stone. Your skills remain as they are, and you don't get to add new skill proficiencies. But in 3.5, you had the ability to totally control your skill points. You could then entirely change where your new skill points go, shifting all of your character's focus in the new direction. By way of example, I am currently playing a character who has six levels of rogue as a con artist, but has recanted her dishonest ways and become a healer with four levels of life domain cleric. I lived and died by my skill checks before as a rogue, but now, my skills as healer are very low. I'm playing a healer with a +13 to Deception and only a +4 to Medicine, and I can't really do much about that. If we were using the 3.5 skills system, I could have spent all my level-ups as a cleric putting points into Medicine so that I'd be more suited for my new role. It's worth noting that my situation is driven by role-playing, so this suggests that 3.5's skill system is more attuned to role-playing than 5E's. 

Finally, 3.5's skill system allowed players to become more powerful with specific skills than 5E allows, and I would argue that this does not break the game, but instead allows for more faithful role-playing. As I noted above, it was possible to get pretty crazy numbers for your skills in 3.5 if you were strategic. I played a cross-class Cleric of Boccob (the god of magic)/Wizard when I was first learning to play, and he managed to get a +18 in Bluff (3.5's version of Deception) despite being lower level than my 5E rogue/cleric. In practical game terms, this meant that sometimes, a character was almost guaranteed success on a roll. This happens in D&D, sometimes with the attack rolls of mighty warriors and other times on the Performance checks of talented bards. With this skill system, a sufficiently skilled character could reasonably have +18 to a skill, which would indicate that they're so good at the skill, they would almost never fail at it. I don't see it as a broken game so much as a way to acknowledge that a character is so good at something that they reliably succeed at it. This is especially rewarding as a player--feeling as though you can consistently do well at something is rewarding even when experienced narratively. It empowers your players. 

Another feature of 3.5 worth considering was its handling of feats. In 5E, you get the choice of a feat or something else (an ability score improvement when leveling, for instance). In 3.5, you get a feat independently of the ability score improvement every three levels. These feats are, as they are in 5E, exciting ways to boost your character. But in my experience with 5E, no one really takes the feats. Ability score improvements are generally more helpful, and the feats come off as optional. In 3.5, the feats were a regular and enjoyable part of the game. Every three levels, you would get to build on your character with powerful abilities, some which unlocked more powerful abilities down the line. These feats, made a proper part of the game, were very rewarding and helped make characters feel more heroic and exciting. 

I have one last thing that I borrow from 3.5 in my games, but it's not exactly a rules consideration. I really like that 5E includes multiple very distinct pantheons of deities in the appendices--I think that it allows DMs and players a wide range of possible experiences. However, in my experience, that list of pantheons is misunderstood. Many of the players I have run games for use the entire list as a roster of deities instead of using each individual list of deities as the group. It's the kind of small detail I'm loath to correct, but it ends up kind of breaking the game for me. On the other hand, I've written quite a bit about the 3.5 deities in my homebrew setting, so I choose to keep this more limited range of gods. Part of the reason, too, is that some players appeal to gods randomly and strike them from the list when the interaction goes sour. A smaller group means that strategy runs out of gas more quickly. Remember that your comfort zone as a DM is important too!

Beyond those things, 5E is either an updated, smoothed out version of 3.5 or an expansion on it, and I don't make many further distinctions. I do need to add, though, that although I prefer the 3.5 skill system, I do not prefer the 3.5 list of skills. As many people decried back in the day, making "Move Silently" and "Hide" different skills only meant that sneaking characters were twice as likely to fail. "Spot" and "Listen" were similarly frustrating distinctions, as was "Spot" and "Search" to many players. It wasn't that the list was bad--it was just too broad to be able to be strategic in-game, and it was hard to spread your skill points when some skills had a required balanced skill. So I use the much cleaner, more refined list from 5E, but with the 3.5 system of skill points. 

What is that system? I've reproduced it below for your use in your own homebrew games:


Class

1st-Level Skill Points

Higher-Level Skill Points

Barbarian

(4 + INT modifier) x 4

4 + INT modifier

Bard

(6 + INT modifier) x 4

6 + INT modifier

Cleric

(2 + INT modifier) x4

2 + INT modifier

Druid

(4 + INT modifier) x 4

4 + INT modifier

Fighter

(2 + INT modifier) x4

2 + INT modifier

Monk

(4 + INT modifier) x 4

4 + INT modifier

Paladin

(2 + INT modifier) x 4

2 + INT modifier

Ranger

(6 + INT modifier) x 4

6 + INT modifier

Rogue

(8 + INT modifier) x 4

8 + INT modifier

Sorcerer

(2 + INT modifier) x 4

2 + INT modifier

Warlock

(2 + INT modifier) x 4

2 + INT modifier

Wizard

(2 + INT modifier) x 4

2 + INT modifier


I've added Warlock to this table with the same skills as the other main spellcasters, but feel free to adjust any of these numbers to suit your needs best. Every time a character levels up, have them spend their earned points to increase it. If you're using a digital character sheet maker, you may need to override the settings to get this to work--I've employed magical items with the same effect to get it to show up right on a character sheet in similar situations. 

So, I recommend that you give this skill system, the old feats rules, and whatever worldbuilding details suit you best a try. You may find that your players enjoy the increased sense of empowerment and improvement as characters. And remember--gaming inspiration can come from anywhere: the past, present, or future, inside or outside the gaming world. Whatever it is for you, find it. 




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